Improve Your Movement to Improve Your Health, with Todd Hargrove

Improving movement is a topic that’s been gaining in popularity lately. It makes sense as people are finally figuring out that there is a direct correlation between better movement and better health.

On this episode of the GMB Show, Jarlo welcomes Todd Hargrove, blogger, Feldenkrais practitioner, rolfer, and author of A Guide to Better Movement.

Todd specializes in improving people’s health through improving their movement and he draws on his expertise to share some great insights on how we all can do the same for ourselves.

Todd Hargrove is manual therapist and writer based in Seattle Washington.

An athlete all his life, he has always been fascinated by movement and training. He became interested in the science of pain while suffering from chronic pain in his twenties.

After personal success in dealing with his pain through movement and manual therapy, he quit his job as an attorney to become a Rolfer and Feldenkrais Practitioner.

The way you feel has to do with the way you move. – Todd Hargrove

Todd’s blog, Better Movement
Follow Todd on Twitter

Click here to see all our podcast episodes.

You’ll hear:

4:25: How to identify the primary obstacles that are keeping you from moving more.8:40: Why exercise needs to be a vital part of pain relief.11:00: Experiencing pain? Here’s how to start regaining mobility.17:00: What is rolfing and how will it help relieve pain and discomfort?24:00: How open-ended questions can help people find their motivation when it comes to exercising.27:30: Why posture is an important part of reducing energy expenditure and improving your movement.

Links and Resources:

A Guide to Better Movement

Three Essential Elements of Good Posture

Higher Judo

Improve Your Movement To Improve Your Health

Jarlo: Hey everybody this is Jarlo and welcome to the GMB Fitness Show. I’m real happy to have here with us, Todd Hargrove.

Todd: Hey everyone.

Jarlo: Hey. I met Todd, it was about a year ago, I took one of your workshops.

Todd: Yes.

Jarlo: We had friends visit over and then we went over and took your classes, I thought that was great. Over in the Greenwood area.

Todd: Thank you.

Jarlo: For those of you that don’t know who Todd is, you better find out because he’s awesome. Todd has a really interesting background. He started as an attorney-at-law. Which I think is really interesting, and then got out of that and Rolfing, Feldenkrais, author, lots really into the emerging pain science movement. In our show notes we’ll have links to his blog, to his book, he’s just a really interesting person. I love talking with him. Really grateful to have you on the show.

Todd: Thanks for coming, it’s good to be here.

Jarlo: Yeah, and also, you’re an avid pool player. Recently I saw you.

Todd: This is my new unproductive hobby. I like to play.

Jarlo: It’s awesome. I remember in one of your updates, you said you broke and ran 3 racks at 9 ball, right?

Todd: Yeah that was my new P.R. I guess you could call anything that happens in P.R. I guess you can do that, but yeah, I’ve always liked sports and physical activities, and usually most of the things that I get obsessed with. I’ve been obsessed with squash and getting better soccer, even though I’m not very good at soccer. Training for all these kinds of things at an amateur level. I just kind of took up pool again, and it’s kind of bad because you’re in the dark pool hall. You’re not getting fit, you’re just hunched over a table that’s really fun and absorbing.

Jarlo: I understand obsessions like that, it’s actually super interesting to do something that is outside your normal activities, right?

Todd: Yeah, variety is the spice of life.

Jarlo: Tell us a little bit about what you’ve been doing in this past year or so.

Todd: The past year, well I guess it was 2 years ago, I write this blog and I update that from time to time, maybe about once a month. I wrote a book about 2 years and I’ve had a few offers to talk on Podcasts or go to conferences and do some talks. About 3 weeks ago I went down the the San Diego Pain Conference that I was very honored to be invited to talk there, because there was some very, very good speakers from all over the world. Robert Sapolsky was talking, he’s the guy that talks about stress, so I got to see him talk. He’s very impressive. Greg Lehman was there and Fabrizio Benedetti, an Italian researcher on placebo, so lots of cool information about pain down there. It was cool to participate.

Jarlo: Yeah, I saw that Pain Conference, it’s only about 2 or 3 years old, right? Relatively new?

Todd: That was the second year. I attended it last year, that was the first year and yeah they’ll do one next year as well, and I think Ben Cormack is going to talk, and Roderick Henderson, some other people. They’re going to talk about movement and pain and stuff that you know we’re all interested in.

Jarlo: With your book, it’s called, “A Guide to Better Movement,” I think that is something everybody is really interested in.

Todd: Yes, everybody wants better movement, I think everyone should be in it. Not everyone is interested in movement, but they’re getting more and more interested in movement. A lot of people are just interested in what’s going on in their computer screen like that. People definitely get interested in their neck hurting because they’re not working on their movement. Then some people kind of have to be convinced that the way you feel has something to do with the way you’re moving, and that idea is becoming more and more prevalent. I’m sure your listeners are tuned into it or they wouldn’t be listening. It’s becoming a more and more common idea that the way you move in your life has something to do with the way you feel.

Jarlo: What would you consider the primary barriers for people that are preventing them from moving better? You’ve worked with a lot of different clients over the years and with yourself right? It’s one of the reasons you got into this field.

Todd: Yeah, well i think with myself and with my clients I think that the biggest barrier is, what I mentioned, is pain. You can be a very competent mover in a lot of respects you can have a lot of skill, you can have a lot of strength, you can have a lot of endurance, you can have a lot of stability and balance, you can even train those things. Those are things that are easy to get, but if you pain at some joint that’s right in the middle of your body that’s kind of involved in all the movements that you’re doing, that’s going to have a big impact on your movement quality. That’s true even if you’re tough enough to deal with the fact that it hurts and to play through pain and to keep going through it.

Imagine you’ve got a pain that you’re out there playing soccer, like I do or you’re doing gymnastics or whatever, and you’ve got a pain that is really like an irritation, you can deal with it. You’re a tough guy and you’re okay with it. There’s an unconscious process in your body that are protecting you from that perceived threat. That happens with, the protection just doesn’t come from the pain, you’ll also get stiff. In an area where you’ve got pain, you can’t help it, muscles that are near that area will probably start to stiffen up, maybe shorten up your ranges of motion. Maybe that’s a range of motion that you really want to have, but because there’s some pain there, your body reflexively shuts you down and doesn’t let you get to that range of motion and stiffens things up.

You’ll also get weaker in an area where there’s pain. You’ve got these studies where they inject a little saline solution into your knee or something like that to cause artificial pain, and then people’s strength level go right down. This is true even if they’re trying their hardest, so you can’t really express your potential if you’ve got pain in an area. You’re movement patters get altered as well, you start to reorganize to remove stress from that area and that might really reduce the efficiency of your movement. Limping is the obvious example, we all know if you hurt your foot you limp, but if any area of your body hurts a little bit, you’ll kind of start to reorganize your movement so that it’s not going to hurt as much. Long story short I think getting out of pain in an area is the quickest road to improving something.

Jarlo: Right. What you’ve described is that cycle, you need to feel better, but you have pain so you stop moving and then you just get stuck in that.

Todd: Exactly. It’s not easy to get out of pain, there’s no magic formula to do it, but to improve your movement, I think, it’s something you should have on your mind. That’s why the training world started to talk to the P.T. world. The P.T. world started to talk to the training world and there is this communication there, because they realized that there are a lot of important things to be learned from each side.

Jarlo: Yeah, definitely the overlap and unfortunately that’s causes some of it’s own problems, right? When …

Todd: Yeah, people get out of their expert zone and things like that, but it’s good that there’s a conversation between the pain people and the movement people and the performance people, and the rehab people.

Jarlo: One of the things that, you know in the last few years with people like Lorimar Mosely and all of the Pain Science Group is that it’s not just pain and stiffness and things like that, but it’s actual awareness. Real, critical, neuron awareness of a body part that’s and issue. In terms of the low back, you’ll see discrimination point, like sensory changes. It’s almost like your body forgets what’s happening in that area. That’s why it seems like movement variability and you teach with Feldenkrais excersies different kind of coordination exercises, why that’s a really important entry point into helping people get out of this pain cycle.

Todd: Yeah, so you get in pain in a certain area, you stop moving that part of the body, and if you’re not moving that part of that body, you become less aware of it. You almost forget about movement capacities that you have in that area. That’s really obvious with the low back, you get pain in your low back, you start bracing it, you stop moving it in whatever direction it hurts, maybe in deflection, into rotation, there’s all sorts of little movements that can happen in your low back and in your ribs. Got all those joints in there, you got all those ribs, those subtle little movements are important, but you shut them down after an injury. Rightly so because it’s a natural instinct to want to brace the area, but if you don’t move it for awhile, you can get in the habit of not moving it and keeping that really small movement vocabulary there.

In Feldenkrais called that Sensory Motor Amnesia, that means you basically forget how to move in ways that you’re capable of doing because you’ve gotten out of the habit of doing it. That’s kind of what Mosely’s talking about too, his point is that when an area gets painful you also lose awareness of what is going on in there and those things seem to work together. Pain can cause lack of awareness, and then that lack of awareness in that area causes lack of movement and can increase your pain. Kind of same thing you were talking about, with that viscous cycle.

Jarlo: Right, I think a lot of what your work is and what I’ve been trying to do with GMB material is trying to improve that movement capacity, that movement vocabulary, different combined movements. I’m coming from that physical therapy background, I think about the joint, combined movements, and quadrants and all these terms that therapists use, but when we go and try to teach clients, we talk about circles, we talk about going into area that, you don’t normally do through the day. Where it’s painful, we try to avoid pain as much as possible, but we also have to try and move into it a bit. Maybe you can talk to us a little bit about how you approach a client that is in pain and you know you want to try and improve the movement and improve their capacity for movement, how would you first go ahead and get someone to do that?

Todd: You mentioned you don’t want to cause pain, but you want to start exploring the movements that are possible. I think that’s exactly it, and that’s kind of a simple formula for dealing with pain through movement. Not easy at all to implement in some people because if you start exploring movement in a back that hurts then maybe you flare it up, something like that. Still that’s the strategy, so if someone comes in and says, “Well my back hurts.” The first thing I’m interested in is, well is that related to movement, does it hurt when you do this, does it hurt when you do that. I want to start to figure out okay it hurts them when I do this exact movement here, maybe it’s twisting, maybe it’s flexing, something like that, but then I want to start slowly, and in a non-threatening way, exploring other movements that are possible there.

Sometimes you find, okay it hurts when I flex when I’m standing, but you know what, it doesn’t hurt for me to flex my back when I’m lying on my back, or when you do a cat cow. Different position, yeah maybe you can flex your back in a different position, so I want to get them moving as much as possible in that area in a way that doesn’t flare them up, in a way that doesn’t cause pain. The more the better because when an area hurts, a lot of people will get very, very protective, they’ll get over protective. They’ll shut everything down in the area, even stuff that maybe doesn’t need to get shut down.

You want to start walking them back in the direction that they want to go, really slowly, in a way that doesn’t freak them out or flare them up. That’s great at exposure. You expose people to the stress that’s causing a problem in a real slow progressive way. I think that’s the same thing you’re doing with your gymnastics progressions right? You slowly progress people towards something that, you look at Ryan do that stuff, that’s threatening. That would cause an injury, I can’t do that. How do I get from here to there, that’s the trick. You guys have come up with the progressions to get people here to there each step along the way is not too far of a step. At some point you take a step that might be a little bit scary, like a back flip or something, but that’s what you guys do, that’s why sports progressions are similar to physical therapy progressions. You’re just going step by step.

Jarlo: Yeah and it becomes an art at some point, right? You can have all of these different exercises and progressions and you can have standards or minimums, but that’s kind of a global thing. You’re going to have to treat each patient, each client, within themselves and say, well this progression or this variation for most people it works, but then when you look at them they’re like, “Oh we need to do something a little bit different.” I think that creativity, I really liked when we took your workshop, your classes last year.

Todd: Oh cool.

Jarlo: Yeah, because what you’re doing is, say you’re teaching the class and you’re showing a particular thing, but then one little detail might be better for someone else, right? Or it might be this particular week, if you’ve been working with someone and then you know how they react, and then you’re like, “Oh they usually do okay with this, but today they’re not doing so well.” Begin able to be creative and shifting is a great…

Todd: Unfortunately we always as therapists or athletic trainers, and I know myself, I would love to have an algorithm or a recipe or a blueprint to take people exactly from A to B, and say if this happens then that. What you find is that when you start to apply those things is that you get off the map very quickly with whoever you’re working with. Everybody is so different and they’re always presenting you with little curve balls and stuff like that. I think all you can really do with most people is just kind of rely on very general principles like, graded exposure, light progressive overload, and you just …

Jarlo: Right, and teaching a way for them to understand within themselves to self-regulate. I’m really wary of programs that are so step by step. It just doesn’t make sense on the face-fit, how can you take a person, again, from A to B to C in this really specific way? You can’t.

Todd: Yeah, if they’re general steps, that’s cool, but if they’re super specific then you’re going to get off the map and not really apply to you.

Jarlo: If you spent any time coaching and working with people, for real, I mean you should see that right away.

Todd: Yeah, and the coaches that have been doing it year after year after year and are good at it, I mean, they do this stuff instinctively. You can kind of develop the abstract, theoretical models which explain why this is the case, but these guys know this intuitively. That’s the way the great coaches, they’ll do this anyway.

Jarlo: I think with clients and all of that, do you still do Rolfing? Are you still seeing clients with that?

Todd: Yeah, I do. People come to me and I hold someone out as someone that does Rolfing, which is the nature of a deep tissue massage. I also on my web site, I’ll say I’m a Reldenkrais guy, which is kind of a movement therapy, lots of slow gentle movements. People come to me for the Rolfing for the most part. I have people that come that say’s, “Hey, I want to work on my movement.” Mostly people come to me and say, “I want some of that deep tissue massage, it’s a passive therapy.” Personally, I want to get them moving as much as possible. I can make people feel better.

Jarlo: That’s what I wanted to talk to you a little bit about because I’ve been a PT for these years too, specializing in manual work. It’s really difficult to convince a person that they need more than just someone rubbing on them for a little bit and shaking their joints around. Right?

Todd: Yes, that’s the easiest thing, if they could take a pill for it that would be even better, that’s reasonable because that’s the path of least resistance. They’ve been sold by a lot of people, they’ve seen other people that have had a problem and by some miracle some manual therapist made them feel better and the problem went away forever. That does happen, but it’s probably the exception to the rule. The more common thing is some sort of manual therapy is going to make you feel good when you walk out of the office two or three days maybe a week after that, but then whatever lifestyle issues brought you that problem in the first place, will probably start to bring it back to you.

Jarlo: Exactly.

Todd: There’s some sort lifestyle movement alteration, which is necessary to make this a more permanent fix.

Jarlo: It’s not to poo-poo on manual therapy, or Rolfing, or anything like that.

Todd: No, not at all that, I’m a manual therapist, I love it, it’s great. I just want to add the movement.

Jarlo: Right, it’s just what we do. What I’ve really tried to do in the last few years is use the phrase this is a window of opportunity, right? You come in and get the treatment and I’m like, “Okay, this usually works really well,” maybe it’s the second time they’ve come in and they’re like, “It felt great after that first time, how can I keep this going?” I’m like, “Well, you know, what I want to do is provide a window of opportunity for you, if you can have a few days chained together, where you’re feeling better, that’s when you should be able to get moving.” Try some of these things that I’m trying to show them. Whether it’s a specific correcting thing or as simple as you should try and go walk for a half hour, that would be great for you.

In terms of clients like these what’s the realities and responsibilities of their life? There’s all kinds of reasons why you shouldn’t exercise, you don’t have time to exercise, you have kids, you have work and all that, that’s very reasonable, right? I always try to provide, this takes 5 minutes, this particular thing takes 5 minutes to do. I show them in the clinic, I can sit down when I do it. I try to provide the easiest thing for someone and just trying to remove as many excuses as possible. What are your particular strategies for that, for trying to get people to be consistent and take advantage of the opportunity you’ve given them with that treatment.

Todd: I try to connect, I call it their movement homework. I say, “You’re going to get some movement homework, are you into movement homework.” A lot of people are like, “Yeah, I want some of that stuff.” They’re easier. I try to connect it to a functional goal that they are personally motivated to achieve and that’s meaningful to them. People always come in and one of their goals, obviously, is they want to get rid of pain. That’s an obvious goal, but if you can turn it into a functional goal that they want to perform, then that is more related in their mind to doing their movement homework. I say, “What physically do you want to do now, that you can’t do?” Some people don’t have a clear answer there, and maybe you can help them develop a goal. Some people kind of already have one, and they just haven’t stated it or they haven’t clarified it in their mind.

A lot of people will say, “I want to hiking, I love hiking, God dammit I haven’t done that in years, it’s meaningful to me, I want to do it with my kids, or my husband or something like that.” Or it’s play tennis or it’s get back to running, whatever it is. Then you’ve formed a connection between something that’s very meaning to them that has value in their life. This is concrete things so they’re not doing the exercises for some abstract reason that they don’t understand, that someone else told them to do. The motivation is there. You’ve already got all that good stuff that’s going to make them show up and then you try and connect what you’re doing to that. To me that’s the strategy that makes the most sense to me. I think that I would also say that I have more success with that, I mean the most obvious example is runners. Runners come in, running is their whole life, they got run to have meaning in their life. My foot hurts, I can’t run, so those people do their homework, right?

Jarlo: Exactly. We see that too, it’s different when a person is just that self-motivated. Whether it’s runners or anybody that has or is their lifestyle. It’s a lot more difficult to kind of tap into something like that with someone who is just, you know, “Oh, yeah, I kind of just want to move around better.” With that you have to dig deep. What you describe is great, it’s perfect for, and I’ve seen that too for getting that consistency and getting people going, but it’s a lot more difficult than just handing them a piece of paper with 5 exercises on them, for sure.

Todd: Yeah, and people have vague goals, you know, I want to move better, I want to feel better, like that. Here is another example of why I like your program, you give people a specific, concrete, look this is what the end product looks like, this is the move that you are going to work towards. You can have some sort of vague idea, I want to move better, I want to feel better, I want to be an athlete, but what exactly does that look like? You’re program gives people a specific, concrete picture of one way that might look like if that’s an inspiring, meaningful image to you, if you see that and you say, that’s who I want to be or I would be very proud of myself if I could do a muscle up or whatever movement you see there. Now you’ve got some sort of a concrete pathway to walk and it lets you know things that you need to be doing to get there.

Jarlo: I like the way you phrased that with the image or that movement, if it’s something that means something to you, and it’s not something we present as, “Oh, everybody should be able to do this, or everybody should be able to do that.” You provide these options and you have people have that decision for themselves and that’s internal motivation, that’s something that’s relevant to them, and I think that’s perfect.

Todd: Yeah, exactly it’s got to come from them. I think it’s less affective when a therapist or sports trainer tell people this is what your goal should be and when they work what people’s own values are. I think it kind of goes to that, I need to get more clear in this book, the motivational interviewing book. You know the motivational interviewing idea?

Jarlo: Yeah.

Todd: I think the basic idea is using these kind of indirect strategies are more effective than telling people what they need to do. These open ended questions about what do you want to do, then people get thinking and then they start doing what they should be doing. Not because you’re telling them, because you’re kind of indirectly helping them get there.

Jarlo: That’s interesting you bring that up because that’s kind of in vogue now and I think you’ve been a therapist and a trainer and a teacher for awhile, it’s something that after working with hundreds and thousands of clients you sort of become more intuitive of it. You have a history, you take a history in the beginning, you have an intake and a lot of times you have your routine, this is the way it was for me, you sort of get into it. Then you realize with some people that’s the same questions I asked this person in the same way and the same exact manner aren’t illiciting the responses that I’m used to. This motivational question, this kind of open ended work, is so much better than expecting a certain thing. I think that’s a matter of experience, but I think it’s a really interesting topic to work on.

Todd: Yeah, I mean it depends on your level of authority too, if you’re doctor or a surgeon wearing a white coat I think the people kind of expect to be told what to do and then do it. If you’re just some scruffy Rolfer somewhere, you know, people don’t care if you wrote a book.

Jarlo: Definitely audience and authority figures and all that is totally a different topic. Talking about information and all these different things with pain, with movement, there’s just so many different controversies you can have 5 people in a room talking about 1 topic and everybody is just arguing the hell out of one position. It’s just the way it is. It’s actually pretty good, with the internet and the accessibility of all of this is so much different than it was 15 years ago. So different.

Todd: I think there’s progress, even though there’s a lot of noise, I think the signal is coming through a little bit.

Jarlo: One of the first posts I read on your side a few years ago, talked about posture. Posture is a great example of something that is pretty controversial. What is good posture? Especially for Rolfing, it’s interesting I went through the series and went through the 10 and 11 sessions about a dozen years ago over in Hawaii. I loved it, I thought it was great. I went in and was just do what you want. I read things I was like, “Oh this is interesting.” One of the classic things in the Rolfing in the book was stacking blocks, this is what you should be like, so she has the pictures and you see people with their head forward, the butt sticking out, she rubs on it a little bit.

Todd: The blocks get rearranged.

Jarlo: Right, I love that, that’s perfect. It’s something that anybody can look at and like, “That makes sense.” That’s not really how things should go, but I liked what your take on it was, posture as a position of efficiency, it’s a position where it’s transitional and you can move in a right way from that. I love that.

Todd: I wrote this post on I think it’s called 3 Essential Elements of Good Posture, and one of them is efficiency, that’s just the idea that this is basically Feldenkrais idea on posture, I shouldn’t say these are my ideas, this post is very heavily influenced by Feldenkrais ideas of good movement and good posture. His idea with posture is it’s really movement. It’s just movement, but their small movements, so whenever you’re standing up, you’re actually oscillating around a center point, it’s not a totally static situation. It’s kind of like a constant process of falling and recovering, but just on a very small level.

Also, there’s always on-going movement. You’re always looking left, you’re always looking right, you’re probably moving with your hands, so this idea with posture is the same criteria for looking what’s good movement. Efficiency is a really big thing. You want to be able to do whatever you’re doing with minimum of energetic expenditure. That’s probably a pretty good guide for what movements are good, is that if it feels really easy for you, it’s probably a good way to do it. If you look at great athletes doing stuff, what’s your impressions like, “Man that looks easy.”

The other things is you’re always prepared for the next movement, and this is why posture for one situation is not necessarily good posture for another, so good posture when you’re waiting in the field to field a baseball, it’s hand on the knees, because you got to be able to go in any direction. The Feldenkrais with this kind of martial arts backing, I think he has a martial arts background in Judo and I know you do too so you might be interested in this, his idea with good posture was really that you should always be ready for action. Even though you’re in a relaxed situation, I think this is kind of a martial arts thing, you got this idea where you kind of develop this primal environment where you might get attacked at any moment.

If you’re truly relaxed in that environment there’s always got to be a part of you that’s ready to go. If your ready to go, if you’ve got that self-confidence in your ability to do stuff, that’s when you truly relax. He really had this connection between powerful, athletic, prepared, adaptable movements and just sitting around. There’s not that much difference for him.

Jarlo: I think it’s really interesting because it talks about posture and being able to move from one place to another and Judo is all about removing someones posture.

Todd: Oh you want to destabilize them?

Jarlo: Yeah, you want to destabilize them, and that’s his book I read it’s called “Higher Judo.”

Todd: “Higher Judo,” I haven’t even read that, good for you.

Jarlo: “Higher Judo,” is really interesting because I remember, I hadn’t read that, I read that a couple years ago, but I remember in school reading “Awareness through Movement” and all these things and I had no idea that he was into marital arts and all that, but after awhile you look at it and you’re like, “That makes sense,” because he was talking about how to remove someones posture.

Todd: It all came out of that, he was very influenced by that background.

Jarlo: Super interesting and when people talk about martial arts and all that with the UFC and MMA, it’s like oh it’s fighting and it’s all of that, but at the core it, for me because I’ve been doing it for a long time, it’s more of body awareness. After a certain point it becomes this kind of vehicle for yourself, for improving, I know we talk about moving variability and all these things, and you can choose that, whether it’s playing squash or doing martial arts or gymnastics or anything like that, it becomes your personal vehicle, what are you attracted to, and what do you want to perform physically. There’s so many different options.

Todd: It’s more than just the movement. Feldenkrais is about more than just movement. Martial arts is about more than just movement, yoga as well, so all these kind of mindful movement practices have that in common. I notice with your, I mean I’ve got your GMB parallettes thing and I notice there is a mindfulness aspect to that and I see you guys putting that into your practices, kind of like just not about the movement about controlling your attention, controlling your mind and stuff like that, I like that.

Jarlo: I think it’s a way to get people into it without being to woo about it, rather that it being the first entry point.

Todd Hargrove: Yeah, I don’t like to see these eastern practices having a total monopoly on any kind of understanding of mind/body stuff, I think that the science is finally advancing far enough that we can kind of understand this in our western scientific language. That’s one of the ideas in my book, there’s all this great stuff in yoga and martial arts and they’ve been having a monopoly on these good ideas, but they use their kind of ancient language to describe it. That scares away a lot of people that are scientific minded, you shouldn’t be scared, these are good practices. I can explain this to you in language you might prefer, but it’s good stuff.

Jarlo: Well, I’d like to thank you for taking the time out your day, I know you’re a busy person and it’s a great day in Seattle, that’s where we are right now.

Todd Hargrove: That’s right, we’re suffering right now, Seattle-ites, when they see the sun they lose their minds.

Jarlo: Yeah, we need to get out. Thanks so much, so in our show notes here I’m going to have different links to Todd’s sites and his book and if you haven’t picked up the book, I highly recommend it. I got it, it must be a couple years now right? A year and a half? Something like that?

Todd Hargrove: Almost 2 years now, something like exactly 2 years.

Jarlo: I actually go the physical copy, not just a Kindle, I have both, but I have the physical copy.

Todd Hargrove: Good, you got to get it, it’s got pictures.

Jarlo: It’s great, well thanks so much Todd, everybody if you want a little bit more information, feel free to contact us at [email protected], whether it’s about Todd’s book or anything in general. Thanks and we’ll see you next time. Thanks a lot Todd.

Todd Hargrove: Thank you sir.

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